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Where Did The Scots Come From?
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Canada is a strange place, full of diversity, and with it comes some strange theories. Here are three I have heard from non-Scottish immigrants about the Scottish:
1) The name Cameron is a derivative of an old Italian name and was brought to the British Isles as the Roman Empire was dying.
2) All Scots hail from Bulgaria and the migration happened.
3) Scots are the lost tribe of Israel.
Does anyone know the truth? Do all have a grain of truth, or are they fantasies from people who truly want to be Scottish (O! I hear the bias coming, LOL)?
Well its not exactly the Scots that you are hearing about. The word "Scot" came from a tribe known as the Scotti who were Irish Gaelic/Celts.
Most of what you list would refer to the Celtic tribes who were believed to have come from the east, perhaps Persia or beyond or at the very least central Europe in the Iron Age. They conquered most of Europe including Rome as they moved westward into Gaul and Iberia, then up into Ireland and eventually Scotland.
Some believe that the Picts were a Celtic tribe also. They were in northern Britain before the Scots, perhaps by way of Germany or Denmark. But their origins are lost in the mists of time and no one knows for certain.
As for the Cameron bit "this famous and ancient Scottish surname has two origins; firstly, as a Highland clan name it represents a nickname from the Gaelic "cam" meaning crooked, bent, plus "sron", nose. Secondly, in the Lowlands it is normally a locational name from any of the various places so called, all of which show early forms such as "Cambrun", and are named from the Gaelic "cam" plus "brun", hill."
But many Scottish names derive from other places: Vikings, Danes, Normans, French, Welsh, English, etc. etc. The Romans were there and did leave behind some of their people who were absorbed in the "Scots" as we know them today. Not wishful thinking at all. Just part of who the Scots are.
Hope that helps.
I think faeries left them under cabbage leaves...
quickfind:iain_ciotach > "I think faeries left them under cabbage leaves..."
Nae, that was the Irish who were left under cabbage leaves!
I'm starting to think I took this question far too seriously.
I was always told I came from a gleam in my Daddy's eye!!!!
I recently bought a Scottish history book by Magnus Magnusson: Scotland - The Story of a Nation. According to that book, the author says the people the Romans Scoti came from Ireland.
Mr. Highlander, I'm sure your daddy did have a gleam in his eye when you were conceived.
quickfind:ctbuchanan > "I'm starting to think I took this question far too seriously."
Cousin, you answered the question with such expertise! So now we can have fun with our answers.
I'm sorry, David. I forgot to warn you all I was an a**h*le.
Serious info much appreciated, David. Considering some of the nonsense that floats around this country it's a breath of fresh air to have the truth.
Now, on to Drake! He's been building the world's biggest naughty chair and buffing it with his butt.
It's so 'elitist' of Highlander to talk about the gleam in his daddy's eye! I'll bet he has a few gleams of his own to keep the elite Highlanders going.
So, Amy the Irish are really Scottish or the Scottish really Irish, according to Magnussun? We know the Romans didn't like the Scoti, thus the wall to keep us back.
Understanding the migrations of peoples in prehistoric times is a very difficult business, and probably won't be well understood until genetic analyses of modern populations can be correlated with similar analyses of ancient human remains.
And gittin' aw blistery...
quickfind:maclass47 > "Cousin, you answered the question with such expertise! So now we can have fun with our answers."
No, it's just me. Sometimes I can't tell if the posts on here are just pulling people's legs or asking a question. That's not a criticism - just me being dense sometimes. But it doesn't matter, I'm not that thin skinned. But now I'm starting to confuse myself.
And David G: hits it square. People keep trying to measure history in modern terms. There was no Ireland or Scotland a thousand years ago as we know it today. So when people try to apply terms like "Irish" or "Scottish" to those tribes it doesn't really work.
I do not have the book with me at the moment, because I am at work - but according to the book I bought, It also said something about the Scottish people descending from some Egyptian female. Tonight when I get home I will look it up and quote.
Ahh, my father's first language was Gaelic. He joined the RAF and during the early 50's was stationed in Bagdad. He said it was easy for him to pick up Arabic because the phoneme (sounds) are very similar to Gaelic.
He never mentioned the similarities between the two languages' structures, and a linguist studying both would be the one to ask about this.
Since Arabic is the contemporary language of Aramaic, and there are phoneme similarities with Gaelic, the ancient Scottish being the lost tribe of Israel must remain purely speculation. To find any written documentation to confirm this would be beyond the needle-in-the-haystack. But, it is always possible some archeologist digs something up, somewhere to confirm either way.
The Bulgarians I've spoken with say their language is similar to Gaelic. Plus, some of the other customs are the same as the Scottish, which would point to migration during the Iron Age. Is Bulgarian similar to Aramaic? I don't know.
The Italian claim has some plausibility, but I believe it's just wishful thinking on the part of some who are enamoured with the romanticized history.
Hadrian's Wall was to keep those living further north from having easy access to invade. Early Vikings were raiding the coasts at the time, and I believe the Romans had a great fear of these peoples, because of their innate superstitions.
I posed the question to get a view from those who have studied Scottish history more than I. Depending on where one lives in Canada the libraries stock the shelves with history and cultural according to the area's population. Scottish history is non-existent in my part of the country.
That all being said, I still welcome the flippant and witty comments, because to laugh is to live. Back to your chair, Mr. Drake!
I ne'er left it, Ms. Alysen!
quickfind:alysen > "He never mentioned the similarities between the two languages' structures, and a linguist studying both would be the one to ask about this"
The structural differences are substantial. Gaelic is an Indo-European language. (Bulgarian is another) Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, and several other middle-eastern languages, both living and extinct, are members of the Afro-Asiatic family of languages.
There are many, many similarities of vocabulary and grammar among languages in the same family. For example, if you hear someone counting aloud the numbers from one to ten in almost any Indo-European language, you will probably recognize what you are hearing, even if you don't know the language. If you know more than one Indo-European language, the probability that you will recognize such counting rises to near-certainty. If you hear someone counting from one to ten in Arabic, you will have no clue as to what is being said.
There is a lot of nonsense floating around about linguistics in some quarters. A few years ago, I saw a piece of "evidence" on a web site which was devoted to the idea that the Gaels were the descendants of the lost tribes of Israel. The bogus evidence was two short texts which on the surface appeared to be very similar. One was said to be ancient Hebrew and the other was Old Irish. No translation was provided for either. Since I know Gaelic fairly well and also know some Latin, I can usually read most of an Old Irish sentence. This particular one, however, was complete gibberish, and I suspect that the same was true of the supposedly Hebrew text. The absence of translations suggests that the author of this bogus evidence was being deliberately deceptive.
Okay, so what we have here is that all the world wants to be Scottish (check the tartan finder at ScotWeb to see all the new tartans being created for non-Scottish people!) The reason is this - the Scots are God's chosen people. See, the Scots really are the lost tribe of Israel (forget about the "facts" researchers, scientists and archaeologists tell you). See the linguistic pattern here? Israel has tribes and Native Americans have tribes. And now they have finally let out the "real truth" about the Holy Grail. (I saw it on the History Channel, right?) See, Jesus was really married and had this kid. After he died, the wife and kid really moved to Scotland and the descendants intermarried with the Scots because the Scots were the lost tribe of Israel. (Some people claimed they ended up in France, but we know better, right?) So, now, we have the truth: Scots are twice God's children. I read that in the Bible Code just this morning. (We all know that the Bible Code is real, right?)
Why don't the Scots look Semitic? Well, uhm? Someone can make up a reason for that.
Uh, Oh! I forgot - the Native American are the lost tribe of Israel, too. Actually, the Picts, Celts, and Gaels were tribes of Native American who immigrated to the British Isles. Well, actually, the History Channel had a program where it explained that Scotland was part of North America way back because there was this type of rock in Scotland that was found only in Scotland and in part of North America. ----- And everybody thought that Scots immigrated to the Americas. Now we have it - the Native Americans (lost tribe of Israel) immigrated to Scotland, and then some re-immigrated to the Americas thousands of years later! (This whole thing about Orientals crossing the Bering bridge and turning into Native Americans, well, that's just more of that nonsense made up by those scientists, researchers, and archaelolgists.)
Hummm? I am part Scot on my dad's side and part Native American on my mom's side. Does that mean that I am a Jewish Presbyterian married to a German Lutheran?
quickfind:jokennedy > "Why don't the Scots look Semitic?"
Joanne, have you ever met a Cameron? We have Semitic noses! In fact that could be the real evidence of Scots being the lost tribe of Israel.
Very funny, I enjoyed your Presbyterian Jewish slant on things.
quickfind:alysen > "have you ever met a Cameron? We have Semitic noses! In fact that could be the real evidence of Scots being the lost tribe of Israel."
Alysen, the only Camerons I have met were boys who had the first name of Cameron. The way it is, Cameron clearly describes the shape of the nose of the original Cameron. This shape has obviously been passed down. I have Campbell ancestry in addition to the Kennedy. I didn't inherit the crooked mouth (I don't know anyone in my family who did). Is there a clan whose name describes crooked feet? I could be descended from the crooked feet clan.
Well, some Native Americans have less than small noses too. See, that is the connection! The lost tribe got stuck on the Americas; Pict, Celt, and Gael tribes (Semitic noses and all) drifted away with Scotland when it broke apart from North America and slammed into England. See, we have it all figured out! And of course, Jesus's kid mixed in with the Scottish Native Americans to become the modern Scots. (Hey! What are you Scots doing hanging around with the European Union? You belong in the Organization of American States! You are the most lost tribe Israel ever had!) Speaking of Scots being the lost tribe of Israel, aren't ladies's sashes and gent's shoulder fly plaids the Scot version of the Jewish prayer shawl (just fancied up the stripe on the edge to an overall plaid)?
Speaking of the meaning of clan names: it has long been a tradition of some people to use the mother's surname for a son's first name, so much so that some surnames are commonly found as male's first names. In recent times some parents have taken to naming their daughters Kennedy. I wonder how many of those parents know what they are really calling their little girls?
I'm sticking with my original answer.
quickfind:iain_ciotach > "I'm sticking with my original answer."
No, no, no, Drake! The Cabbage Patch Faeries put them in the doctor's little black stork bag. The doctor brings the little black stork bag and pulls the little Scots out and hands them to the little Scot mommies and daddies fully dressed in formal highland dress. But, of course, the CP Faeries had to fly from Jerusalem, over the Americas, then to Scotland before putting them in the doctor's little black stork bag.
I have this on good authority. One of my doctors is Dr. Drake.
Scotland from Jerusalem via America? Who plotted that route? AAA?
OOO that can't be Mr Drake. The AAA is much more efficient; that route must of been plotted by those who would eventually be Canadians - the mindset being 'if it's organized and efficient throw it out with the baby'.
Very funny Joanne! And Hollywood,CA has two actresses named "Broken Nose", which fits in well with the Native American connection.
Legend has it the Scots came from Egypt:
A pharaohs daughter called Scotia ran a troublesome gang that were known as Scots. They were basically thrown out of Spain and Ireland finally settling in a land that would be known as Scotland.
This topic's tags: history.
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